The Mezzanine Floor
The Mezzanine Floor is a podcast that creates a space for conversations concerning the christian life as we walk out living in the tension between heaven and earth.
Join our host, Pastor Malachi Maillot and his guests as they wrestle with how we ought to live with a heavenly mindset in an earthly body.
The Mezzanine Floor
Season 3 Ep 7 - Find Freedom
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
My gosh, my brain's been hijacked and my ADHD never helped that. And not knowing how to process my traumas never helped that. But once I'm realizing that this my brain is in a rut, and these neurons have fired off and created these synapses. And this is why I feel so out of control, like a zombie. Yeah when I'm bawling out my eyes to God that I don't ever want to do this again. And then two hours later, I'm in zombie land.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Of like, you know, who's up there driving now? You know, I don't have control of my brain.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And control it, like that's a huge driver. Yeah. Because that's a safety feature for so many of us because of trauma, right? And so when you feel out of control, right, and then you get into that place where it's like, oh, thank you. When you're recording, yeah, sure. But yeah, when you get into that place where you feel out of control and you don't understand, and it's years of this cycle, absolutely, and you just get lower and lower, and then all of a sudden this material lights up. Oh no, you do have some control. You just need to do things differently. You need a winning strategy, you need to engage your brain in new ways and create neuropathways. Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And and Austin, uh, Aaron, sorry, Aaron. Yeah, no. Uh, when my therapist said, uh, I said, first day with my therapist, Jesse, will you pray for me? And he goes, nope. I go, you won't? He goes, nope. You got a lot of work to do. Prayer's magic for you. You got to show up and take responsibility. I was like, That's so good. How could you leave me to this therapist, God? You know, this therapist goes to my church, God? And he said the F-word during our session, and I'm just like, God, this can't be the man for me, you know. But he was just what I needed, kind of deconstructing some of my thinking airs around taking responsibility, integrating the way of God in my sexuality, my trauma, my mind. You know, it's really a gift.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_07It's really a gift, you know. So I love it that the I could watch the Conquer series today and just love that Bill and the Nye science guy that's on there, that little guy that's kind of phosphate B, travels from you know, I call him Bill and I the science guy.
SPEAKER_06You know, he's just got that real quirkiness, like oh, I like that dude. He's cool. You know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_09It was eye-opening.
SPEAKER_07For single guys in the room thinking through you know, when we did it at our church, we just showed the five videos one a week. We had no books, we just said three questions when it's when it's done. Let's open up the floor. What stood out to you the most that you never really see before? And we just had open dialogue right there in the 50 guys.
SPEAKER_09I think what what it goes to speak, and I know this is getting into some of the questions, so we could pause too, but just to put a plug and then maybe we can pick it back up of like what play works in churches. I this was earlier this year, we got to speak at a men's breakfast, 140 guys in the room, and dudes had been making food for like 48 hours, and it was incredible. Yeah. And Rich and I show up, Rich shares his story about abuse and reenactment, and it's just gut-wrenching, hard just moving, so moving. Uh, and at the end of it, as we're sharing stories, statistics, all these things, uh, the invitation was, hey men, who here thinks porn shouldn't be the sexual educator of our kids. Rodney's like a famous line that turns the key. Yeah. Everybody raises their hand. I'm like, well, then I need you to join Pastor Matt as they start the Conquer series. And of the 140, many of them didn't even go to the church. They had over 30 plus sign up, and like they had to like limit how many they could get into a room. Right. And I've never seen a response like that on a Sunday morning when it comes to who here wants to, you know, combat sexual brokenness or fight porn. Yeah. But we see that response again and again. When it is from the lens of nobility, will you do something for somebody else? Right. Or the other pastors on staff for your sons. Yeah. But so few and far between will somebody actually take a set for themselves and say, no, no, I need that. Yeah. Because that's an invitation that feels really shameful.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07And that's where religion hasn't helped. Because there's been a lot of shame around human sexuality. The shame around our just even how we interpret the word flesh. Right. We think that has to do with our elbow or our hand or the our penis. That's not what the you know, that's talking about our ego or the carnal, the the the uh uh the the Greek word is different from just you're human. It's the word about the carnal nature, right? Sarks is the Greek word. And so, like if we don't have a good theology that our bodies are made in God's image and really good. And if you start from that, that you have a healthy sense of your body and human sexuality is really good and wonderful, then it's not I I think that's the problem. There's the the the shame is because there's so much silence in the church. Yeah, and we don't have a healthy narrative of our bodies and our sexuality. So when we have this, whatever a kid has a wet dream or are exposed to something, yeah, or has his first orgasm, he or she, and then there's no narrative but pornography, yeah. Well, then this must be the right way. Everything's even, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it just packs on the the longer time goes on where it's not addressed, there's no conversation.
SPEAKER_07Our silence is killing. That's what I'm saying. Our silence is killing, and this is where uh I could just scream to the top of my lungs that we have to be the sex educators, we have to have a better narrative around God given uh my sister's a labor and delivery nurse, you know. And a little baby girl can vaginally lubricate in the first 24 hours of birth. She's not like a pervert, that's like how God made her.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And a little boy can have an erection in the first five minutes. Right. They're sexual, we're sexual beings from birth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And if we just understand that this is good, this is beautiful, this is how God made our body, and then we learn how to steward it and manage it as we get age appropriate and talk about it. Mom and dad are the safest people, right? And now many times when we just hear sexual language, like John was we were we were laughing when John said he was saying, Yeah, think about Jesus having his first wet dream, right? Saying to Joseph, hey dad, what the heck happened in my loincloth last night? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I had the craziest dream, Dad. And Joe's like, son, grab that hammer and come on over here.
SPEAKER_07Mary, this is awkward.
SPEAKER_06You know, I wouldn't have, yeah.
SPEAKER_07But to think that and sometimes when people hear John or I or anyone talk like that, it's almost like sacrilegious. Yeah. Not my savior.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_07He never had an erection. He wasn't human, right? I mean, just like we was he fully human or was he not? God has such a high view of humanity that God became one of us. Think about that. He entered our condition, yet knew no sin, right? Yet became sin so that we might become the righteousness of Christ.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Mind-boggling. And so anyway, just a better narrative, I think, around that whole piece of our sexual uh narrative and and how we have a framework that's really good. And that's why that that's how I think you can make Sunday mornings in Western Christianity not so shameful. Yeah. Is when uh sex education is a part of your discipleship. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, by helping mom and dad and helping that narrative be better.
SPEAKER_04So are you happy, Logan?
SPEAKER_07There's happiness there. The sound coming through, all right? Yeah. That was just a little rant, so we got all that language out.
SPEAKER_04Well, this is how you get primed before you get to the uh kind of get warmed up and then we just get right into it. Yeah, let's go.
SPEAKER_00These mics are honestly really forgetting, so it's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_07You have to lean right in.
SPEAKER_04Thanks, Logan. It's a great room, yeah. We're happy with it. Well done.
SPEAKER_07How many podcasts have you guys done? Uh fifteen? Right?
SPEAKER_02We've done twelve already. One year. I don't know how how many have been released.
SPEAKER_00Uh every single one of them recorded.
SPEAKER_07So your series is Finding Freedom, right? Finding freedom? That's the current uh series.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we're in we it's uh one of our four pillars is behind closed doors. That's what we call it. So it's no god. Uh it's actually no god, find freedom, discover your purpose, make a difference, but we reversed them because we knew you were coming. So it's no god yeah. So finding freedom is third instead of second. Well good because make a difference was last week.
SPEAKER_09Rodney Rodney hates when people come to church just to hide all their stuff and then get freedom later. So starting with freedom is a good place to start. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Well, we'll try to tie into some of that language. 23? Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that'll be helpful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I was trying to count, but you listed them in seasons on uh Spotify. YouTube just gave me the calendar. Oh, okay. Nice.
SPEAKER_08That's cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Which means you guys have been doing this for two years.
SPEAKER_02Uh about that. Yeah. I actually don't host. So this is I'm I'm a guest to this. I love it. A guest host.
SPEAKER_04And I never host, but I'm always I've been on it a bunch. Yeah. Uh, especially in the new format. I tried getting out of it, but it's like, you don't need me, find someone else. I like it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, just good conver you're a good conversationalist.
SPEAKER_04We're gonna have some fun.
SPEAKER_07I know that about you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04All right. Yeah, are we ready to roll? I'm gonna, I'll just I'm gonna pray.
SPEAKER_02How long would you like this to be? Uh you guys have dinner plans, I think, right? What time are we doing?
SPEAKER_09I mean, just tell me how what's your normal yeah, because we can I think we have 60 minutes, as in, I think if we leave here by 5 30, we'll be able to get to dinner. Yeah, we can get that done. Okay, sounds good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, all right. Let's pray, Lord. Uh yeah, we just thank you for the opportunity we have to join with brothers that have expertise, Lord, and anointing to do the call of this type of work, Lord. So as we get into this weekend, get into this podcast, into the training, into the brainstorming of the Sunday, the Sunday night, Lord, that your Holy Spirit goes before us, prepares hearts before they come, Lord, that wherever there's uncomfortableness, Lord, that your Holy Spirit will come and just show the direction, show the way we need to go, and just direct our conversation as we get into this uh right now and we just talk about these things, Lord. That Lord, whatever we are putting out, whatever we are saying is giving you glory and showing how great you are and what you can do, and that there's hope and that there's freedom to be had in your presence, Lord. So we just give you all the praise in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you, Brian. All right, I'm gonna kick us off. So I have an intro, then I'm gonna introduce everyone, then ask some questions. You will you you saw all the notes, but we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_07I like the name Aaron. I almost named my son Aaron, but it went, we went with Austin. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A-A-R-O-N. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good name.
SPEAKER_02That is double.
SPEAKER_07If I call you Austin, it's because I think of Aaron and Austin.
SPEAKER_02That's okay. You can call me whatever you want. People call me Anthony because the last name that's a first name, it's pretty, you know.
SPEAKER_04You said you know Rich Harris. I know a Rich Harris that I listen to on YouTube sometimes from New York I thought you I thought that's what you said, Rich Harris.
SPEAKER_08Sorry, no, I don't know if I do know Rich Harris.
SPEAKER_04Maybe I'm just hearing things. That's been known to happen.
SPEAKER_08That'd be crazy. I uh yeah, I don't think I know Rich Harris. Oh, okay. I thought that's what you said.
SPEAKER_02I think you were talking about Richmore earlier. Richmore. And maybe and uh whatever you said after Rich, because you didn't say a last name. He might have heard that's what I heard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Are either of you gonna be able to make Nashville this year at all?
SPEAKER_02Danny and I are planning on going. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, and then we want to bring Steven and Leah again as well. Steven and Leah are like they're all in. And they've been they've been fantastic, like, and we're like, I fully like I would follow both of them. They're both natural leaders in their own right, and so I love watching how they've been growing in this, and I think they're gonna be expanding out here pretty quick as well.
SPEAKER_09Also, are we getting to intro Aaron?
SPEAKER_02Like, or does the community know who is no no?
SPEAKER_04I'm intro I'm intro him anyway.
SPEAKER_02A lot of the most of the community knows me, but not necessarily the online. But you're not allowed to.
SPEAKER_07It's kind of like the Canadian Dr. Ruth, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, funny story, I'm actually Texan. So I love it. Oh, that's even better. So is Danny Canadian? Yeah, she's Canadian, so she's from Calgary. What part of Texas are you from? Um well, I was born in a small town called Hamilton. Hamilton. Like just one water tower high school town square. Wow. Wow. And then uh we moved up to Canada. My mom's from here when I was in the third grade. Okay. Uh actually second grade. And then grade nine moved back to Texas. Wow. And so I finished high school down in the Dallas Fort Worth area. Nice. And uh and then I joined what suburb? What suburb? Uh do you know where like Keller is, like Watauga on the Fort Worth side? Yeah, Fort Worthside. So North Fort Worth. Yeah. So that's where that's where we were. I went to um Fossil Ridge High School. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I lived in Dallas for a year.
SPEAKER_09Okay, what part? Uh University Park, which is just north of the street. Just north?
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, okay. Wharton King Logan. Nice. I was gonna say near Plano, right? Near Plano. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not too far. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, all right. We recording? Yeah, we're going. All right, I'm just gonna kick us off. Welcome back to the Mezzanine floor where we talk about living in the tension between heaven and earth. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. And you can follow us on YouTube. You can actually follow us pretty much anywhere that they have video podcasts that we're there. Uh, if you like this video, please leave a comment. We'd love to hear any feedback. We really do appreciate that. Every month we take some time to reflect on the sermon series that we're in. Uh, and so we don't want to shy away from any big topics that we're going to be talking about. And so we like to talk about different perspectives and different tensions and takeaways that bring us deeper than maybe what a Sunday morning can actually have and actually bring us deeper into relationship with God. And if you're not a part of KCC, here's a personal invite from one of the pastors to come join us on a Sunday. We would love to have you. If not, we'd love to see you on our live stream. Uh, and you may notice right away that I am not Malachi, and he's our usual host for all 23 of our episodes. Uh, and so today we have a different, a bit of a different episode planned. And so we have some special guests, uh, and we are gonna be doing talking about some things that is a much needed topic in the church. And the two gentlemen that I have with me are going to be, well, the three gentlemen I have with me are gonna be bringing some much needed perspective and some hope to something that's really a great topic for us to do. So I just want to introduce our guests to my right. I have Aaron Anthony, and this is his first time on the podcast. He is gonna be my co-host, he's been with uh KCC for we think 18 plus years. Um at least, at least, at least, and Aaron and Danny have been leaders in this church for such a long time. They're part of our marriage team, they're part of the worship team, they've been leading groups uh in Pure Desire, which you're gonna hear about in a minute. However, for the last few years, and so it's an honor for me to get to work with him and to call him my friend. And to my left, this left, the early closest left, is Rodney Wright from Pure Desire. He is the interim president of Pure Desire. And directly to his left is John Begaman, and he is the advancement director. So, all that to say, we're gonna start with this, guys. We're gonna start with for all the people who have never heard of Pure Desire, we give you you well, actually, well, this is what we'll do. We each give you 30 seconds each just to talk about Pure Desire, what you do, and who you serve in that.
SPEAKER_07Uh beautiful. Well, first of all, let me just say it is an honor to be here with you, uh Brian and Aaron, and to just be on this podcast. Now we're lucky. John and I are really happy to represent Pure Desire, a nonprofit that's been around unofficially about 30 years, but uh started just from a pastor that had a vision of this is a real problem of sexuality, sexual brokenness, pornography, uh betrayal, all this is really a problem, and and felt the tug on his heart of the Holy Spirit to participate in some healing. It's amazing. And so uh that was the birth of pure desire all those years ago, and really we've uh come to a place where uh we're biblically based, Christ-centered, and clinically informed, and very much about groups and about uh the neuroscience of the brain and a holistic approach to how we heal body, mind, and spirit. Amazing and inter learning to integrate the way of God in all areas of our life. And so good. It's beautiful that our we have a clinical team and and we have uh uh a staff and we're just trying to get the good word out. We do that through counseling, through education, and through groups. And so we're honored to be here.
SPEAKER_09And uh we're blessed to have you. Yeah, we're excited for this.
SPEAKER_07I'll let John kind of add to some of that narrative.
SPEAKER_09I mean, I would just say I'm honored to be in Canada, period.
SPEAKER_07First time John got flagged in security coming through just an hour ago, which is really great. He didn't make such an impact we need to dump him before we leave.
SPEAKER_09I've got my mafia buddy here, John. You know, yeah, I get the privilege of serving donors, a part of the nonprofit. And sorry, um I did something like that.
SPEAKER_00That's okay. Yeah, which piece?
SPEAKER_07Just tell me which piece. Did you figure it out? Okay, yeah, yeah, sure. Well, Brian, we're honored to be here with you. Uh Pure Desire is a nonprofit that unofficially started almost 30 years ago by our founders, Dr. Ted and Diane Roberts. And we have uh an organization that is really taking a dive into how pornography is detrimental in the lives of men and women, and how it's really an issue within the body of Christ, within churches all across uh our country and really around the world. And so uh our organization is Christ-centered and it is also clinically informed. So we look at what we're finding in counseling, what we're finding in neuroscience of the brain, how our how we're wired, as well as what the Bible teaches about renewing of our minds and about how to process our traumas well, as you know a lot about Aaron. And so um I joined this cause 15 years ago. I'll share a little bit of my story here a little bit, but honored to be here. And I just was a kind of a non-essential remote worker and uh started by just raising my own support. I was a pastor of the church, and I heard about this, and I was like, I want to go help the world in this area. I felt called to do it.
SPEAKER_04That's amazing.
SPEAKER_07So I joined as a board member 10 years ago, and I I'm here today. We have a lot of great leaders uh and men and women that council and lead groups and great ambassadors all over the country, and you guys are two of those for us. And so we're honored to be on your podcast and be here in Canada.
SPEAKER_09Uh truly honored to be in Canada. Uh, it's my first time. Um was stopped in customs as just a welcome gift to the country. That was fun.
SPEAKER_07Uh John got a pat down. So anyway, he's we're glad he's here with us. From those Canadian guys, okay? Yeah, that's not a part of my story with the finger.
SPEAKER_09Uh just uh anyways, honored to be here. I serve donors uh at Pure Desire, which truly is a gift, no pun intended, uh, from the lens of generosity. Uh but just to get to hear the stories, uh, to Rodney's point, we have so many clinicians that do deep work. Aaron, I know this is kind of your realm, getting to work with people directly. Uh that's not us. Uh, we're more of the faces. I don't know if they should have made us the faces, but we are. Face for radio, but I guess I'm on YouTube for radio. But ambassadors, truly, and communicators of the work that God is doing and through these groups. Uh, that's a part of Rodney and I's own story. We come to the table uh as wounded healers, as in we know what it's like to be wounded in the realm of sexuality, pornography addiction, as well as finding recovery and getting to truly be ambassadors, not really of pure desire, but of hope. Yeah. The message that Christ is still about, the work of redemption here and now in that in-between space, that you don't have to wait till heaven uh to enjoy the goodness that is on offer, uh, that it's right here, right now. Amen. And as we lean in and own our stories, process our pain, work through trauma, uh, we just believe that Christ wants to meet us there and that you can truly live a life of freedom that is not just about one day, but is about two day and continuing on. Not that you're done. We're not done. Yeah, we're in process. Yeah, uh, but we are no longer who we once were, uh, and we truly are becoming. And that's the gift of getting to invite so many people into that process. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, you kind of already kind of moved down that path, but how did you end up with pure desire as a job? Was it you felt the call? You kind of mentioned that a little bit, or did you just kind of stumbled into it? It was just how did that happen?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so you know, my journey, first of all, I'll just take you back briefly, but my recovery journey of when I was in my late 20s and just I was a pastor's kid, deep faith, married at the time, three young kids, youth pastor. I mean, I'm praying, asking God to help in every way I can, confessing, reading scripture. I mean, pornography is a continued problem, mismanagement of sexuality. And I was just at my wits' end and and felt like I needed the Lord to lead me to help. And it was a therapist at our church, Aaron, who happened to play the drums. And he was a sexual trauma assessment treatment therapist. And I'm from a Pentecostal background, so like we just come to the altar for all our problems. If you need an oil change, just come to the altar. You know, if you're kitchen if your uh microwave isn't working, just come to the altar. Everybody just come everywhere, just whatever you need. It's at the altar. You know, and Jesus is all you need. That's another little catchphrase, too. And I'm like, well, I'm talking to Jesus a lot, but I'm not transforming. Wow. Yeah. And I do believe that we need Jesus, but sometimes we need the Christ in the therapist to help us. That's right. Speak to the lie in ourselves. So that therapist started my journey and uh found some recovery. I like I say, I went in on a Tuesday hoping to be fixed by Friday. So I look good on Sunday. I wanted that drive-thru magic. And it was a three-year process. Yeah. So when I found healing, I was grateful that I could stop the behavior. But I had a lot of shame around my story because I never heard any pastors or I didn't hear John or anybody just get up and share their story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07So about 15 years ago, I heard a guy give a story and he he talked about his abuse as a kid, abuse as a in a boarding school, uh pornography addiction, affair, and from a church stage. From a church stage. At our church, I invited him to speak. He was an author of a book. And I'm just thinking, that man's free. He has no shame. What's he smoking? I got to get a truckload of that. You know, I was just that's a metaphor for uh my California upbringing. But anyway, Rodney grew up there, only metaphorically I'm using that example. But I but I realize I I have freedom from mismanaging my sexuality, but I have a lot of shame around my history that I can't own and share with anybody.
SPEAKER_09Well, Ronda, just to lean in, somebody had once told you, Rod, you don't have to be the porn pastor.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, exactly. I had actually heard that. And I was kind of glad because I didn't want to sign up for that anyway. I didn't want that in my little jail, you know. But there was just a lot of shame because I never saw in Western church where somebody was just that honest about their journey of recovery within this area. Drugs and alcohol, we're celebrate those folks. But porn, there just wasn't that peace about that. That's a whole nother discussion. I went to a celebrate recovery at our church where I pastored. And a buddy of mine, Joe, who owns a grilled cheese sandwich shop in Court d'Alene, Idaho, uh said, Hey, what are we doing about porn and masturbation? And what's what what how are we helping people? This is a real issue. And he invited me to hear Dr. Ted and Diane Roberts, who were the founders of Pure Desire 15 years ago. I went to that training in Spokane, Washington. They talked about the neuroscience of the brain. They talked about traumas and what the Bible speaks about renewing of our minds, repentance, metanoia. And it was holistic, and it was exactly what I went through with my therapist.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I said, This is the real deal. I know this works. Yeah. Took it back to our church. We started, and in a five-year period, we saw over 200 men and women from our congregation step into group and find hope, healing, and freedom. Wow. And it was like a hot knife through butter. This wasn't a plan that we, you know, we did a retreat for and came back, and it was just me being vulnerable, going first. Yeah, sharing your story. And it just kind of led the way and starting with let's help our kids so that porn isn't the sex educator.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And it gave people permission to come to Conquer Series. I joined the board of Pure Desire a few years later. And then after that, uh eight years ago, I felt the need to leave my church and become an ambassador for PD. I didn't want to start my own thing, believed in the work that was doing. Uh Nick Stumbo, our executive director, was just very, very encouraging. So I raised my support and became a sexual missionary, which I never thought that was my childhood dream.
SPEAKER_06Go around the world and share my negative sexual history. You know, Lord, choose me. This sounds fun, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07It really is fun in a crazy way because you get to be a part of unlocking doors and inviting people into a better narrative. Seeing people just experience freedom. And so when I started groups at my church, uh, this is how this is what happened to me. The Christ in this brother spoke to the lie in Rodney.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That I that that had to define who I was. And then the Christ in me spoke to the the lie in you, and the Christ in you spoke to the lie in him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And it was the body of Christ actually healed me of my shame. It was John Jameson and Joe McCarthy and David Waite and Joe Abate. These guys showed up in my life and they healed my shame. And once your shame's healed, I mean, you take the gloves off and you're ready to go. Sky's the limit. Yeah. The sky's the limit. And so I'm just grateful. I've done a lot of things for PD over the last pure desire, the last years, but I kind of just came to it as a gift, and it was interesting because it was just an another lay layer of my healing.
SPEAKER_09Rodney, tell tell the story about you leaving your church, though, like the night before you're about to make the decision.
SPEAKER_07You know, I'm 50. I was our congregation, you know, at the at one point had about 1,400 adults on a weekend services, four services. I mean, you know, it was a growing healthy. Most pastors don't leave that church. Uh yeah, no kidding. Well taken care of. Uh, three kids. Uh I had just turned 50, and I felt this nudge to not take a salary, go raise my own support because I knew pure desire didn't have resources as a board member, and I really wanted to help them. So I remember just saying, I think I'm supposed to do this. And my son would say, Dad, we're already rich. Who cares about money? Go help people. I mean, my kids were such cheerleaders for me. Like, go do what's in your heart, Dad, you know? And uh, so I remember that night, the night before we were gonna announce it, uh, I woke up, I couldn't sleep. Is this the right thing? I can't, but this sounds kind of crazy. You know what I mean? Most people don't do this at 50. Yeah, yeah. Not a trajectory here. You're switching. It was, you know, it's one thing to talk about faith, and it's another thing to have a faith moment where are you gonna you want to just preach about it or are you gonna walk it out? Yeah, you're gonna walk it out. Yeah. And I remember I was just, I went in my office, uh, had it had I and I laid down on the little uh single bed there and my desk, and I was like, God, how can this be like three in the morning? My window was open, and I just happened to hear like somebody crying. We have a little park across the street where we live there in Quarter Lane, Idaho. And it was this gal that was walking down and she was on the phone with a friend sobbing, and I'm thinking, is there is there an accident or what's going on? And she's sobbing about how her partner was unfaithful to her. And I can't believe that he cheated on me. And she's just venting with her and grieving. And if you're a betrayed partner, you know the pain of betrayal almost hurts more than death, I would say, uh, in the sense of just in betrayal, someone that you loved actually hurt you. And as I heard her her tears and her screaming about how someone's sexual brokenness is destroying her, I felt the Holy Spirit whisper to me, Rod, do you want to participate in what I want to do to heal humanity? It was just this real beautiful affirmation of that's so cool. Rodney, I'm inviting you into something. The need's real. It's real, Rod. Just listen.
SPEAKER_06It's right out your window, you know. Well, you have yes. It was just a beautiful moment.
SPEAKER_07I in fact said, Are you okay? And she she kind of kept walking like she wasn't in immediate danger or anything. But um, it just was one of those things where I think God invites us to participate. And I grew up thinking I had to do something great for God. I had wanted God to use me, you know. And if you've ever been used by somebody, it's not a good thing. God's not a user, God is a lover. That's right. And he doesn't need us to do anything for him, he wants to us to do it with him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_07And he always invites us to participate. And so that invitation for me, it really takes all the pressure off, even sitting here today, even coming to the service this weekend. God, what do you want to do here in in Kelowna at Kelowna Christian Center, in in people in Canada? You know, maybe there's gonna be a PD Canada that's birthed out of all this. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah, whatever God has in store. So I can't tell you, you know, I came to PD, just I felt like it was kind of a divine appointment, really, for me.
SPEAKER_04That's really cool.
SPEAKER_09What about you, John? I was nine uh when I was exposed, grew up in South Dakota. So uh I didn't grow up in Oregon, that's where I currently live. Uh just to fast forward, I was handed an iPod Touch, which so many in my generation have. I'm kind of that borderline of uh millennial Gen Z, Zillennial. I didn't grow up with technology in my hand, but I was handed it. Yeah. Uh in around that 2007, 2008 window where everything exploded and nobody knew what to do. Right. And at nine, I was exposed. Uh, my mom found me looking at this image. Uh, and this moment has been probably one of the most primary pieces of my own recovery journey.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Uh, because my mom, to honor her, didn't know what to do. Right. Like what parent is like, I know exactly how to respond to this. Yeah, right. She didn't know. And in her anger, if I'm being honest, I walked away thinking that sex was bad. If I was sexual, I was bad. Yeah. And so I should never tell anybody. And so at 13, when puberty hit and two buckets load of testosterone was dumped through my system every single day. Like, shout out to the teenagers. I'm sorry, you know, you're experiencing puberty for the first time, like we all did at some point. Yeah. Uh, masturbation and pornography became really close friends. Uh soothing agents to the rejection and humiliation I was experiencing through public school. I was standing up for my faith, but being really humiliated for it. And so at 16, my parents were suspicious of my sexual behavior and gave me a book about uh teenagers and sexuality from focus on the family. And I'm like, oh no. If they see me reading this book, they'll know that I have a problem. So I would, I literally was so hopeless that I was looking for hope in secret because my pain and my sin was in secret, and I was looking for hope in secret. And so late at night or early morning, I'd read this Devo. The first two weeks I don't have sex. I'm like, I'm crushing it. I haven't kissed a girl. Yeah, like I've got this figured out. The next two weeks that if you're stuck using pornography, you have to tell someone. And I wish this conversation was more complex, but I really do think it's that simple. Yeah. Rodney said it earlier already. Yeah. The Christ in him began to heal the lies in me. I think forgiveness is always on offer. First John 1 9. If you confess your sins, he's what? Faithful and just to forgive us. That's this vertical, sorry, yeah, vertical sense of confession. But then there's this horizontal sense of confession. When I look at Aaron, I say, hey, Aaron, it was Twitter this week that I accessed pornography and I really need your help, and I'm not doing well. And Jesus says, James 5, 16, that when we confess to one another, right, this is for healing. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, pray for one another. Exactly. And I'm just like, I think there's two, there's there's an intersection there of forgiveness and healing that we have on offer, but I don't think many of us maybe grew up with that mindset. And it takes a lot of courage to show up at that intersection. Yeah. To experience not just the forgiveness, but also the sense of I'm going to confess to somebody else, not just my prayerful confessions alone. And so for me, uh two weeks later, my dad uh opened that book and found a prayer that I had written asking for help. I couldn't say it to him, but he found it. And to end i school, he would ask me how I was doing weekly, and I would say fine, which was not true, because I had gone back to porn. Uh at 18, went to a camp where uh Sean McDowell, who's an evangelist and apologist out of Biola, uh shared that two and three Christian men were struggling. Current stats today are more like three and four. Uh, and I couldn't believe him. Yeah. I thought he was lying. I'm like, the camp hired a liar because they've obviously never been to my church. Yeah, because I'm the only one. Right. Yeah. I thought I was the only one, which is the greatest lie in addiction. Right. That night we went to a room where somebody shut the door and said, Anything that's shared in here stays in here. Yeah. And I'm like, what is this? Christian Vegas? Like, get me the heck out of this room. And uh Christian Vegas, I like that. Yeah. He went on to share his story first, which Robbie and I would simply define as leadership. Yeah. Go first, yeah. Which is why we're here in this room, by the way. Yeah. Because both of you have gone first. We wouldn't be in this room without your guys' leadership. So thank you. And he shared his story that night, and it shook me. I was like, he got really honest about his broken sexuality. And I'm like, the camp miss this guy in the interview process. You know, like this guy is messed up. And then the Holy Spirit simply inverted the mirror and said, That's you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And if you don't get honest in this moment, that will be your continued story. And it was this warning and invitation, I've got more for you. Yeah. But it's going to require a level of honesty that you've never engaged before. And so my hand shakily raised as I went next. And then five out of the six guys in the room had the exact same stories struggling with pornography and masturbation and had never told anyone. And I got righteously angry, really angry. Because I thought I was dying alone. But really I was just dying in silence. Yeah. Because nobody was talking. And so I begged God at that camp at 18, 10 years ago not to waste my life. Like, God, like if you could do anything through my life, like I don't want anybody else to think that they're alone in this. If I could build a bridge back for anybody else to cross the same thing that I've crossed, like I want to do that with my life. Called my parents, uh, said I wanted free, which meant that I had been lying to them for three years. They had questions. Uh, I got home, and it was that summer when you talk about calling, or how did you end up here? Uh, that I started calling every single guy in my contacts, telling them that I was the porn addict that Jesus loved. And no matter where they were in their own story, whatever they thought their loneness was, that's where Jesus wanted to meet him. That he wasn't waiting for them to enter a church door or waiting for them to clean themselves up, but he was waiting for them in their mess. Like, this is the God who meets us in our suffering. And he's right there with you. And he's not disappointed or ashamed of you, but he loves you and he's inviting you back into whole meetings. And my mom's like, Are you an evangelist? And I'm like, right now I am. Maybe, yeah. And she was like, What about a missionary? I'm like, Are there missionaries that fight porn? Like, I really want to do that. Yeah. And then she's like, Well, what does that even mean? I'm like, I don't know, like, just tell my story. Yeah. Which now fast forward 10 years and we're in the room. Uh, that summer I wrote on a card that God would make me the man who speaks out against porn and changes the way the world sees it. And through college and random internships and being here, and even last year, getting to create stats regarding the newest and latest information on Christian Christians using porn in the church. The Barna study. The Barna study that we funded two years ago.
SPEAKER_07Beyond the porn phenomenon.
SPEAKER_09It just, it was like this pretty profound moment in my own story as I stood on the stage and got to look at a room full of donors who had funded that of like not only am I getting to speak out against pornography, but talking about the way the world thinks about it. I'm like, we literally just set in motion the most current and accurate data and stats for what's actually happening. And it's just this profound fulfillment of like 10 years later, of like this little kid in a 600-person town in the random South Dakota farm, like praying a prayer, like, God, don't waste my life. Uh motivated by sermon series like John Piper, the seven-minute, you know, don't waste your life clip of like, don't settle for Punta Gorda, Florida in a boat. Uh but like do something. Yeah. And to participate in this work has been some of the most sacred moments and opportunities I've ever had in my entire life to hold people in their pain. I had gone through group, found a lot of sobriety. It's been over six years since I've used pornography, over three years since I've used masturbation as a coping mechanism. And I've gotten to lead groups for the last five, just offering to others what I found is the greatest gift. Like I sold everything for that gift I found in the field. And I'm just trying to give it away because I've never seen discipleship go this deep and become this personal and create this level of belonging within like Christian men and Christian women. And that's the beauty.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and even part of the story too is what the Bible says about the power of your testimony. Yeah. There's something that changes when we will uncover the lie, but show the truth of what the Bible says about who we are, and then how like I love that the truth in me speaks to the lie in you. But it's the power of the testimony that will actually make changes. And if you're listening today, just know that that testimony can be yours too. Like it's not, it's not stuck. You're not stuck because you have not now you've heard this, like there's freedom to be had.
SPEAKER_07Ryan, that's so well said. You know, that's John Ford, the woman at Sikar, the woman at the well. She goes to her town and says, Come and meet the Messiah. He knows all about me. Yeah, yeah. She's saying, I found a guy, he knows all my sexual history. He's amazing. Yeah, come, he might know yours too. You got to meet this guy, right? And history knows that she was the first uh missionary to the Samaritan people. She died a martyr's death known as Saint Fatina in church history because she met a Messiah, a man at a well, who saw her, loved her, knew her, knew, knew her at her worst. Yeah, like John just said to his buddies, right? Uh, God's not there pointing the finger of condemnation, but he's extending the hand to show us the better way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07She took it and her testimony. So I'm just Rodney, what's your quote? It's the power of story. And when men and women share their story, it's like the guy on the stage at my church where he shared his negative history with no shame. And I'm like, whatever he's got, I want that. Right. It was something that was so powerful.
SPEAKER_04That kind of engagement, like, even as I know I'm gonna lead us to where we're going next, but even that engagement that you saw, like you don't hear those stories as much as maybe uh that we should, you know, in churches where there's such a an openness to share the rawness of the sin that sexual sin is shameful, sin in general, when you're it is a uh a shameful thing, but then to add that on there because of the way church has kind of handled that over these years, it just it's like this extra layer that actually takes you it takes you out of the almost the option of forgiveness because the all you see is shame, you can't see the other side of that shame. Yeah, and so even as we the like the we're like delving into for maybe people that have heard this, not heard this as much, this is a bit of a a sensitive topic, right? And I love the openness you have to sharing this. And so a lot of churches either avoid this altogether or they address it in a way that just like I said, piles on the shame. It says, like, here's more shame. We're gonna talk about this. And you should, I grew up uh if we'd have considered having sex almost like that was the unforgivable sin. If you ever have sex or you got caught looking or doing anything like that, how do you walk into a church environment? Because that's what you're gonna you're gonna do this weekend with our church. We're we're probably more open than some and maybe less than others. Um, but how do you walk into a church environment and create that space where everyone can actually feel safe and comfortable enough to just be honest? Now there is uh already knowing there's the work of the Holy Spirit going above that, but also you're coming into other environments. It's not your home church, right? This is our church, and what we know what we've been teaching. You you know just a little bit, and you're gonna learn some more soon. But how do you come into that environment and just kind of create that?
SPEAKER_07Well, I think just even the environment here where people are men and women are listening, and so you know, just holding space for even the listeners today. Maybe you've been had sexual abuse or you've been raped or uh paid for an abortion, had an abortion, but just some awful maybe you receive money for sex, but maybe just some real negative sexual history. And even listening to this is like very, very painful, or you're the addict that says, Oh my goodness, I don't I'm what if I get caught? Uh the the whole world's gonna fall apart. Or you're the betrayed partner that says, Oh man, just more men that's hurt people, or the betrayal can be the other way. You're the betrayed male that's there. Yeah, so I think just holding space for people, and we try to, you know, come in on a Sunday morning, we realize this is a sensitive subject. Yeah, uh, we realize that nobody really wants to be in that room when we talk about this, and we know it because of the stats. There's just a lot of shame in the room. And so we really just try to come in to hold space. Uh, we we try to use humor because uh the and humor and story. Uh C.S. Lewis said story has a way of getting past our watchful dragons. Story, right? It has a way of touching our hearts, and when our heart space is opened, and when you see people being you know real and open and vulnerable, I mean to me, those are the best speakers I've ever heard. Who is it, Rod? The men and women who stand up and are just them themselves. And they just offer who they are as a gift. And uh, and and to to John's credit and his generation, you know, that millennial Gen Z Alpha, they're much more open and vulnerable. Yeah, they don't have near the shame because they're just like, we got handed an iTod, uh, iPad touch. Thank you. I just said it right. You know, the poor Nice was chiseled on a rock in a cave. I mean, you know, I'm an older, I'm an older generation. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a different world because they've been so exposed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And so this is the beauty. Like when I was getting help 28 years ago, John was just coming through the birth canal. You know what I mean? Like, like Rod, you're gonna need help. I'm getting John on the planet, you know. But it's so beautiful, I think, just when no matter your age, single or married, when men and women stand up and own their story, and then we we've been in churches where that's really not the right place to just say, if you're a woman that's an addict, come over here. Yeah, if you're a man that's an addict, come over here. Yeah, Aaron, Aaron, you know, the Lord's telling me the Lord's telling me which section has problems with masturbation, you know. Like this is like, oh my God, I can't believe he's using this language. And we don't in in on in services, but what we try to say is for the sake of your kids, for the sake of your kids, would anyone agree with me? We should not let porn be the sex educator for our children, yeah. Because it was for young Rodney and young John. And for the sake of your kid or grandkid, would we would we offer something better? And this is where we call the body of Christ, at least in the Western church, to education and nobility. Right, yeah, because that's everybody there. If this if the church needs a new bus to take those kids to camp, those five farmers and the one. Vineyard owner is going to write a check for a bus. And those kids are getting to camp safely. And we simply say there's kids by the millions that are trafficked or exposed. And porn is such so damaging and so even more despicable and uh violent today that they're actually saying it's traumatic to kids. Yeah. It's traumatizing, not just expose yours to sexuality. Um and then how do we just create a new narrative in churches that our sexuality is good? And so we kind of start from that. That'll be our our launching pad. Is that God made something really good and beautiful? We're just here to reclaim the story. Yeah, and then with that got hijacked.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and with that, then I would kind of want to move on to why to be clear for anyone who's ever going to hear this, why does this matter? Because we hear a lot of pushback around the idea, you probably heard it a hundred times. This is why does this matter? Why do we need to talk about this? I'm only hurting myself. It's it's consensual or it's not real. Or they're just making excuses, but why does this matter? Tell us why this matters that we deal with this.
SPEAKER_09Well, I think it's crazy that even in that excuse, like they're admitting it only hurts myself. Yeah. Like, can we just pause there for a second, Sarou? Yeah. They're literally admitting this substance is destructive for me to consume. I think that's I think that's just eye-opening. I'm like, your argument, you're actually breaking your own argument. Yeah. Like you just said, you just admit it it hurts you. And I'm like, Aaron, I can only imagine how often you see this.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, yeah, it comes up quite often when you know talking with people. Well, and it's and you see the tension, right? Like, this isn't people really just trying to minimize because they don't care. Right. Like there is there is sincere pain, there is sincere depth of like shame and all of these these layers that are that are in there. And they're really trying to pick apart and just put part of it down so they don't have to carry it. So the the reasoning and the the if I can justify just a little bit, I'm not as bad as I think, or or whatever the you know, the underlying root is that's driving some of that behavior.
SPEAKER_09Have you guys watched Lord of the Rings? Oh yeah. So you know what an orc is? Oh yeah. You'll see it on an orc. Yeah. You'll see it in our slide deck for Sunday, but uh we have, yeah, we're like, where is this going? Uh we have slides just regarding uh blood flow in the brain. And we have a slide that says shows a healthy brain versus a brain on cocaine. And most researchers would show or and say that a brain on cocaine and a brain on porn is indistinguishable. Yeah. That you can't tell. And you can see the atrophy, the limitation of red blood flow, healthy oxygenation of the brain. You can literally see the beginning stages and stages of deformation in the brain. So then we have another type of scan, it's a different scan, uh, that shows just the removal of some of that uh matter. And what's so profound is we have a healthy brain, brain on cocaine, and a brain on porn. And the brain on porn looks worse.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_09Like, think about it. I I I'd be curious to know the stat how often a cocaine user is using cocaine. Because the reality is you could use porn twice a day. Or more. Or more. Yeah. Or more. Right now there's this phrase called gooning where there's this idea among Gen Z, it's like, how much porn can I watch at once? They have multiple screens and they're just trying to live in the state of like continued arousal. I mean, our our world is not getting better.
SPEAKER_04I've never heard that one before.
SPEAKER_09Our world is not getting better. But just to say, then the next slide is a photo of Legolas and a photo of an orc. Yeah. And the one is your healthy brain and your brain on porn. Like it literally, like just to highlight this is destructive. And it's this isn't this isn't a moral argument.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it's the neuroscience argument, right? Of the brain and how the brain functions. And so that's a piece of it too, just mental health. And and that aspect, I think, is really important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's it's straight dopamine. Yeah, right. And you can't live on dopamine 24-7. No, uh, even though you've got the bull is not water. Yeah, you've got access on your phone 24-7, right? And it's for somebody that's caught in this um self-soothing medicated behavior um to not to feel anything different.
SPEAKER_07And there's this piece of dignity, honor, safety, respect that when like I think the a great definition of sexual integrity is when I treat myself sexually with dignity, honor, and respect and safety. And then when I treat other human beings, male or female, it doesn't matter, with dignity, honor, and respect and safety sexually. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And I think like that is really important when we talk about objectification. Uh if I I have a I have a granddaughter, Holland, I have a daughter, Whitney, uh, I have a sister, a mother. Uh, I don't, I wouldn't objectify them sexually. They're people that I know and love.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Well, an another human being that's not my wife. I mean, I meant to bond to a person sexually, and that's my wife, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And that's that's falling in love with a human, not just a body part.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And this is the object uh objectification argument is that you've bonded to uh a breast or or or a buttocks. Yeah. Uh you should bond with a heart. That's way better. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, that's what I say to guys in recovery.
SPEAKER_07You bonded to you've bonded to a just a piece of uh of our anatomy. Bond to a human being, that's there's a better way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I think that's the best argument is the call to the better way. And I think that's the heart of the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Jesus is saying, Oh, go and sin no more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07There's a better way. And I think that's the invitation. We don't condemn you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You're you're worthy of love and honor. We want to heal you so you can find the better way.
SPEAKER_09But it doesn't end with objectification because then it becomes commercialization and then consumption. And so to the argument of like, what does it really matter? Like, oh, these porn stars are consenting, as if they're consenting adults, but you don't know that they're taking alcohol and drugs even to show up on set. Yeah. Or the sense that, oh, well, it's just pornography and they're being paid, but you don't know how much of this is not being paid. You don't know how much of this is actually trafficking. Right. And so now this is actually like what feels like just my personal pleasure on a lonely Saturday night is actually fueling this human-wide global industry of trafficking. And like I trafficking is an overused word. What is it? This is slavery. This is literally sex slavery. Trafficking has other definitions, but when it comes to sex trafficking, this is like human in bondage for the purpose of sex. That's messed up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And it's um it's so it's so important. Like when we look at what we consume, right? Um, I I talked to a lot of people about we were like, we were never intended to carry the weight of the entire world on our shoulders. And through social media, we're seeing what's happening all over the world every single day. Why do I know what the straight of hormuz is? Exactly. We're carrying these burdens and these weights of things that we can't influence, we can't change, um, and we not necessarily even be called to change, right? But we are called to our communities, right? And we are called to make an impact here. Um, and some people are, you know, you do go overseas, you do make an impact there. That's great. But in that same token, if we're not meant to emotionally and mentally carry the weight of the world, if we bombard ourselves with pornography and sexual exploitation and all of those things, um, it's so damaging. Like it's so damaging.
SPEAKER_07You know, there's a good, uh, a wonderful uh non-faith-based organization called Culture Reframe. And they're an organization that's just fighting pornography from a public health issue, yeah, not a religious issue at all. I love hearing them. We met them at Gonzaga University about eight years ago. We went to a conference and it was fabulous. Yeah. Because they had faith-based, non-faith-based just saying it's a public health issue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07But this is what I love about, and I have a I have a bent toward helping parents help the young kids, right? I'm fighting for my grandkids now, right? But like uh Kristen Jensen has a great book called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. You teach your kids what pornography is, how it hurts them, and what to do if you see it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07So now you make mom and dad the safest person, and then you educate that little five-year-old that's on maybe someone's device to realize that nudity isn't bad, but objectification is, or and understand the difference, right? Because I think kids should see nudity sitting on the lap of their parents in a in just a book of how God made our bodies. Yeah. Not in a sexualized way, but just in an education. Yeah. You know, boys have penises and scrotums and uh testicles, uh uh, and girls have vulvas or vaginas. Those aren't dirty words. No, they're just sexual your words used in a healthy context.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07And because we didn't grow up hearing that language, that that almost sounds triggering, or the only time we've heard sexual language is in a derogatory way, then we feel shame. But then, you know, you turn the page and red balloons, green balloons, and grandma makes chili, and you know, it's just it's just a a a book.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07But if you educate the kids about what's healthy and what's unhealthy, then when they look at that object, they would say, Oh my goodness, if that was my sister or my cousin, I wouldn't look at her that way. Yeah, absolutely. And what to do. Mom and dad are the safest person. Hey, this hurts our brain. I've learned how this hurts us. And now you create an ethos or a or or a culture in your home where parents can help their kids and they know how to train and guide, not shame and punish. And that's really, really key. We're gonna talk about that Sunday night. Yeah. About a parent's just given mom and dad's framework now, yeah, not to shame, not to pass on shame, but to do the opposite. Right. Yeah, we're excited.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I want to move into some of the statistics that uh you were bringing up, those those Barna stats that you helped um kind of get involved in and putting into motion and funding there. Um paint the picture. What what does it look like in the church? You know, the whole family. What are what are we looking at here?
SPEAKER_09Three words. It's not good. Um, the the broad picture is that 75% of men are using pornography at least monthly in the church. 40% of women are using pornography at least monthly. And just to camp there for a second and say pornography is not a male or female issue. Yeah. Pornography is a people issue. Yeah. Because we've all been given the good gift of sexuality. And so if there's any women listening right now and they're thinking, if I ever told somebody about my use of masturbation or pornography, I would be deemed 10 times worse because it's a man's issue or I shouldn't be strong. It's just not true. Yeah, it's a lie. That's the lie. Yeah. You take 75% of men and 40% of women, and you combine that, 54% of Christians this Sunday, here at Colonial Christian Center, have viewed or will view pornography in a month span. Wow. So if it's not you, it's the person next to you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09The stats are literally that potent. And I'm not trying to be jarring, I'm just trying to speak truthfully. Truthfully, the stats.
SPEAKER_07We've got a real issue that we got to figure out how to invite people into a better conversation, and then there's uh a good pathway out.
SPEAKER_09I think I think the stat two stats that are most concerning. I know uh we were kind of getting there of like what was shocking for you in the stats. Of so 100% of all the people struggling, yeah, 82 say they've never told anyone. Yeah. And I think I think that's doing a disservice for some church leaders, whether that's here in Canada or across the globe. Because I think a lot of pastors are like, well, it can't be that bad. No one's talking about it. So like, well, no one's talking about it because one of the essences of shame is voicelessness. Yeah. So of course they're not talking about it. And I think the stats then prove that 82% haven't told anyone. No one is helping them. I think the other shocking stat for me was that in Gen Z, so 75% of males, 40% of females, that's that's all adults. But you get down into that young adult demographic. I know you guys have a young adult pastor here. He's probably like, yes, tell me more. Uh, and you see 77% of males and 64% of females. So it's climbing. Wow. There's almost no difference.
SPEAKER_07And a stat that I remember, John, to make sure I got this correct, I think it was 74% of the millennials, my kids' generation, I'm 58, they would say if churches aren't talking about that, they're irrelevant and they have their head in the sand. Yeah. Wow. If but oh but the boomer generation, only 30% of boomers want us to talk about that. Please do not talk about boomers.
SPEAKER_04Boomers are like I'm uncomfortable, please don't like it.
SPEAKER_07Take us back to knowing the ark, please. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_07You know, and and and so again, how does how does the scriptures, how does the way of Jesus integrate with this most intimate part of my humanity? Yeah, my sexuality. And please don't be silent from the stage. Right. Help us, we're drowning here. Yeah. And I think that's the narrative that that our our church culture is saying there's gotta be a better way. There's gotta be a better way. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Just a question I have. When you when was that study done? Like that shows with the the students. Yeah, 2024. Okay, that tracks. I Pastor Brody, our lead pastor, had met with a counselor uh in town that uh his name is Ed. And they just were they just ran into each other talking about coffee, and he said, you know, before COVID, uh my average age for people coming in for counseling, this is not necessarily about pornography, but with counseling, was between like the ages of 19 to like 40, 35, or 40. And they said after COVID or during COVID, it dropped down to 12 to like 22 or 25 or something like that. And so they kind of it definitely kind of tracks uh with just even that side side, the the load of mental health, of mental health that's happening. Right. And then we so we isolate our children for three years and say you can't do anything but be on the internet, don't go to school, don't be with your friends, don't go to church, stressed, afraid, anxious, alone. Isolate, yeah.
SPEAKER_09Like force, to your point, Aaron, to your point earlier, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04So just that number just is staggering.
SPEAKER_09And we wanted to do it post-2020, right? Because we had the same hypothesis. Yeah, like we know it's going to probably ever increase towards being worse, but man, that the previous stats were 2016. Yeah. So to go 2016 to 2024, there was such a massive cultural inflection point. And I think the stats truly reflect that.
SPEAKER_07And organizations like Pure Desire, we're just a thread in a big cloth that we think God's raising up to bring healing to humanity. We need a lot of help. Uh, you know, and so here's the thing, too. Uh, 10 years ago when this study was done by Josh McDowell, he did the first porn phenomena study, and then ours came 10 years later called Beyond the Porn Phenomena. Back then, only 7% of churches had a specific ministry to help.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And it only grew 3% in 10 years. Wow. Now it's only 10%. And there's I have like reasons why. Uh most local pastors, when you come to them and say, Hey, Pastor, do you want to start a sexual addiction recover ministry and a ministry that helps portrayed partners? Well, that doesn't sound like easy lifting, right? I mean, like, that's like no, we just want to do a new believers class on how to do a Bible study, you know, of everything I want to do, right? That's daunting, right? Like, man, that sounds like we're gonna get into waters. We may not even know how to navigate, right?
SPEAKER_04It is.
SPEAKER_07So what I've realized, and and our biggest fan for PD hasn't been churches, it's been the body of Christ. Yeah, it's been men and women who found healing and said, Hey, I'm a part of this movement too. And they become our greatest ambassadors. So this is where for us, it's like, oh, instead of trying to equip churches to start these ministries, we're actually gonna now begin to educate churches. Yeah, there's a shift for us in our vision. Now we're a movement of healing people who are inviting others into sexual wholeness, where dignity, honor, and safety is restored, and our pathway to the Western church is gonna be education. Yeah. And Pastor, let us do a parent training. Here's something we can do. Just add water, and we're gonna help give your parents a different framework on this subject.
SPEAKER_04And even as a as a pastor that has like I was introduced to this by Aaron six years ago, um, I didn't know anything about it. And the the thing that made the difference was is that I had a champion that wanted to fight for it. Yeah, and I can support the champion. Yeah, there's only so much I can do. There's only because I, you know, we're already doing the discipleship classes and we're doing this, and we got all and build the building and go to the mission field. If you're a pastor listening to this, you find those champions in your church, yeah, men and women that want to lead it, and you give them the resources, the prayer, the time, the the what whatever they need to do it, you can build something with that, and you can change your church because of which has made a huge dent in our church. Beautiful. Because we had champions, they're like, Yeah, we got this. Like, let's run. Praise God for Aaron and Danny and someone.
SPEAKER_02Praise God for Aaron and Danny for sure. But you know what, that wouldn't have happened without the pastoral's response. Like, I really want to reiterate that to any pastors that are listening. Please like give that space for whoever wants to lead that thing. I I can't tell you names, but I there are 20 families easy in our church that are in a different place because of the support that the leadership had to do these groups in here, and because of what Pure Desire put together. And that's just the beginning. Like I'm not done.
SPEAKER_07And to that point, Aaron, we at Pure Desire, we want to do a better job. This is our mission to uh train and invest in you, the leader, so your pastor can know that hey, if you if you have a pure desire group, you're getting competent training, you're getting reinforcement. Like we want to build bridges because we used to just give our material away and say, go for it. Yeah. But now we're realizing, well, hey, we got to do some uh work on our end to say, how do we know who you are? How do we help resource you? Yeah. And then the pastor can feel pretty confident. Oh, they got a PD resource. Hey, they're equipped, uh, they're they're Christ-centered and they're clinically informed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And uh they can be real confident that they're doing no harm when it comes to this area.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so good. And and I think like one thing I noticed as well is like our church culture started to shift. Yes. And we I was seeing men and women raise their hands and worship and just be a little more free and express themselves a little bit more over the last like five, five, six years.
SPEAKER_09Men are hugging in the lobby. What is happening? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07But well, that's the Pastor Brody and Pastor Brian and the staff's credit. I mean credit churches like Kelowna here, Christian Center, who are saying, This really matters. We we we we're gonna say yes to who God's brought to our congregation and where God's inviting us to participate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and I think like this kind of plays into what you were kind of addressing a little bit, but like there's challenges with this, right? It's deep work, it's hard work. What what are what are some of those challenges that you've personally run into? Like, I'd like to hear from each of you, you know.
SPEAKER_09Well, I've got I've got a challenge and a story of just like you know, kind of like breakthrough and healing, how this then played out. I think for a lot of churches, they're looking for a plug and play that meets everybody's needs. Right. And so, right, like the discipleship class or the you know, new to this church class, like that's that's an all-play. So you see a lot of congregations or churches move towards things like celebrate recovery or res gen out of Dallas, Texas. Like there's a lot of people who are churches who are saying, Hey, we're for recovery. We understand people are hurting and people need help navigating pain, working through grief, processing life. But to offer something regarding sexual addiction or betrayal trauma seems so narrow or so focused that we want a bigger offering. And we're not against those offerings, but we also just know that for a lot of people, they need more specified help. And so we love getting and also a 10-month discipleship curriculum doesn't fit in any church model. Right. They're like, give me the eight-week video series that I can post, plug, and play.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And so that's also just a challenge when it comes to the work of recovery. But where this worked, uh, actually in Spokane, which is where Ronda gets to spend some of his time, uh, he went and spoke to the church, just like we're going to the Sunday, had a parent training event. That Sunday morning, there was a man in the audience in his 30s with three kids working from home during COVID, uh, a businessman, entrepreneur. And he had never heard somebody put language to his own story. So he came back on his own volition with his wife that night uh to hear Rodney's parent training. Again, was so convicted and so inspired as Rodney says, Hey, you can't give away what you don't have, mom and dad, before you educate, you yourself need to be educated. Put your mask on first. Yeah. That on the way home, he began to disclose to his wife, which I'm not saying that's prescription. This is just a descriptive part of their story. Yeah. And that became really painful for her. And she said, You need serious help. We need serious help. Yeah. They came to Peter's Eye for counseling, began driving 45 minutes across town to find local groups. They called it uh night church. Their kids were like, We love night church. They had you know child care while both mom and dad were getting help. Right. And a year later, their story looks radically different. They're now some of our closest friends and champions are part of the ministry, leading groups in their local church. So what worked, education, yeah, but then invited parents into their own health that allowed them to take their own steps, and now it's just that perpetuating cycle. Healed people, heal people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's so true.
SPEAKER_09Hurt people, right? Hurt people. It's just the it's the inverse. Yep, yeah. And again, past tense healed is a tough word for us because we're all about progress, yeah, and not about destination. Yeah, but just for the simplicity of the of the saying, healed people, heal people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and and there's complexity when it comes to sexuality, whether that's abuse or types of history or how our arousal templates get distorted, that this isn't just simple lifting. And so we have a clinical team at Pure Desire. We uh partner with a lot of CSATs and therapists, and we re Refer people to to intake uh treatment centers for you know 30, 60, 90 days to say there's nuances to like this brokenness. I was at a men's retreat um a couple years ago. It all seems like yesterday, but I'm sure it was a couple years ago, where a guy stood up and said, uh, I have a porn problem and I'm addicted to transgender porn. That's my so you can see how arousal templates get skewed are all the fetishes that are out there in the world. And so I I love that pure desire has a curriculum that gets right down to the nitty-gritty about our our our trauma. It gets down to our uh how our brain gets wired and how to rewire the brain and our arousal template. And to me, it's it's such a comprehensive approach to helping people because we're complex beings. Uh it's like it's so beautiful that you can realize that you can literally retrain your brain. Romans 12, 2, be transformed by the renewing of your mind, repent metanoia, changing how you think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And that's a process. It's not a it's not a mechanism to get God to forgive you.
SPEAKER_02It's it's not a one-time prayer, God renew my mind, and it happens. Like you, it's your brain. He gave you that brain to manage, right?
SPEAKER_07Exactly. And sometimes you don't know how to repent because you don't know what your thinking air is or your cognitive distortion is, like I did. I didn't know that I needed to repent about how I viewed God because I thought God was mad, gonna pour out his wrath on me every time I had a sexual sin, rather than God was filled with compassion and love and trying to get to me to show me a better way, right? So, and repent on how I saw myself. I thought I was a worthless piece of crap because I had sexual brokenness. I mean, you know, I my my sexual sin was awful as a kid. I mean, I paid for sex when I was 16. Yeah, well, that was the unpardonable sin. I should have been crucified next to Jesus. I mean, I thought I have really just this is awful. And my brain as at a young boy just went off the deep end, right?
SPEAKER_09And so to your point, Brian, like sexual sin might as well be equivalent to murder or worse. That's how I feel like internally.
SPEAKER_07And so for me to come to a place where I could say, oh, because I made such a mistake, I thought I was worthless and I was just on God's plan B, right? Whatever that is, or I I've missed his perfect will. Uh we well, the only way you get his perfect will is to never sin. Yeah. So we're all in plan B. Whatever that is. Yeah, right. So, like now for me to even get on a podcast and share part of my story, I wouldn't do that on Sunday morning, or I'm not trying to blow wigs off. I'm just trying to say, you don't have to live with all that shame any longer. And that's that's just a chapter. That's not my identity. Yeah. And that's the healing work of Jesus, right? Yeah. And I remember sharing this at a uh we were we were at a a college in um uh Branson, Missouri, and I shared my story. And the afterwards I shared that part of my story, and the gal came up to me, the spiritual formation director, about 200 students, and said, Rodney, do you normally share that part of your history when you share? And I said, I don't know. It's my first time to ever do this, so I don't know. How did it go? You know? And she looked at me and she said, Four students paid for sex that just confessed that to me this month. And one student said that they received money. And she just looked at me like, Thank you for having the courage to go first. Yeah, thank you for speaking to the need in the audience today. Thanks for letting people that says your worst day doesn't have to be something that takes you to the grave. Yeah, yeah. That you can be free.
SPEAKER_04I feel like we could probably talk for another hour easily. I wanna I want to start leaning to leaning towards this. Let's land this plane. So I want to land this plane and uh I want to end with this question, and then I'm gonna do a close. But it says, What is your hope that people will get from this when they listen to this episode?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I can lean in. Uh we are as sick as our secrets, but we are as healthy as we are honest. And you telling a safe, trustworthy person, because not everybody has to know every part of your story, but identifying a safe person to begin sharing this with, yeah, that then begins the conversation of looking for competent resources and further compassionate people, that will be the best choice you ever make. To Ronnie's point, you are not defined by your worst moment. That's you have only ever been defined by the love of the Father that was with and for you from the beginning and is still with and for you today. Regardless of where you've been or what you've done. He's crazy about you. Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_07I would just echo the words, you are worthy of love. That's it. If you're listening today and you feel unworthy, let me tell you how worthy you are. God has such a high view of you that God became human just like you to say you are worthy of being loved because we feel worthless. And the truth is, no, no, no. We're we're image bearers of the divine. And they're not giving up on us, they're coming to our worst to say, I got you, and let my love restore you. And I think the lie is we've gone too far. This is too bad. And it I found the the greatest power I've ever found is the love of God in my brother and sister, in my wife, in people. That's what heals us. Uh and I know that we're expecting Christ to return, but I'm glad he's already here. Yeah, because I'm looking at him right now along this room. Even the guy behind the camera back there, I see Christ in him, right? And that's the good news. It's not just about Rodney getting to heaven someday. Yeah, how can I bring heaven here to as many people as I can now? Now, yeah, and if you're living in addiction or bondage, you're in hell. Yeah, so look, we want to invite you to the better way. The kingdom is among us, Jesus said. Change your thinking, repent, and believe the good news. That's good. So we'll end on that note.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I'm just gonna say if you are listening to this, no matter what time you're listening to this, at any time in the next five years you hear this, and you want to connect, and this is something that you feel you want to release and you want some freedom in this, um, and you want to find how to connect with pure desire. Uh, I encourage you to reach out to KCC. My email is gonna be on this podcast. Dania and his wife Erin, their emails are gonna be on this. We want to be able to connect with you, point you in the right direction, get you that freedom, get you that hope to know that this is not where you have to stay, that God has way better, way bigger plans for you. And so we just want to say thank you for all those that are listening that are gonna hear this for the first time. Thank you to these guests for so much for sharing. We appreciate you, Rodney and John and Aaron for sharing your expertise. Thank you guys. We always always appreciate new faces that come onto the podcast and we encourage you to follow us. We love you, we appreciate you. And if you have any questions, any feedback, we love hearing from people that are just following along with us. And so we just pray today that this conversation that we had with these men that have experienced the freedom that God offers, we pray that this blesses you and is something that will lead you towards your own freedom. So, thank you for joining us, and we hope to see you next time.
